Talk:Piotr Rasputin (Earth-616)
Osmium Skin I'm just curious as to the source of this information: He can survive extremes of temperature from 70 degrees above absolute zero (-390 degrees Fahrenheit) to approximately 9000 degrees Fahrenheit (the boiling point of normal osmium). i know his skin is supposed to be likened to osmium, i;m just curious as to where it says that it has all the same properties... ditto for all this: The conversion from flesh and bone to organic steel is accomplished by a psionic whole-brain interface with an ionic form of osmium, an extremely dense metal, located in another dimension. In willing the act of transformation, Colossus actually exchanges osmium atoms for his carbon atoms. The psionic interface with the other dimension re-creates all of Colossus's body in functionally similar organic ionic-osmium materials. this is the first time i've seen any of this, i'm just curious as to its origin... Pr1983 23:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC) :Good question...I also noted this on the article page as a "citation needed". --M1shawhan 01:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC) ::i'll have to learn how to do that... Pr1983 03:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC) :::You can do it by adding to an article. Be sure to check out the formatting it sometimes makes though by previewing the page before you save it. --M1shawhan 17:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC) ::::Ah, cool, thx... Pr1983 01:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC) Peter Jr Didn't Peter have a son in the Savage Land at some point in the 80's, or was that retconned out? I thought I'd ask here before editing, since he isn't listed in the family column. --Noike 06:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC) :I'm not sure, anyone else? :--Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 01:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC) ::Yes, he has one. During his first visit to the Savage land, he slept with two native girls named Nereel and Shakani. Nereel wanted to bring new blood into the tribe, and had Piotr's son. She named him Peter. However, it seems he is unaware it is his. The mother mentioned the father gone, but he did not catch on. ::The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnnybravo44 (talk • ). Nuclear Weapons Not that i mind, but i'm not used to seeing 'can't' in a characters bio... im just curious, again, to know where it was stated that he can't survive a nuclear detonation. i'm not saying he can, i'm just curious... Pr1983 23:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC) :Um...would he want to?? If nothing I bet it would leave a mark ;) - Also marked as citation needed. --M1shawhan 01:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC) ::lol, i wouldnt think so... i was just remembering how ultimate colossus survived a localised nuke from hawkeye... and while colossus in the ultimate universe is a beast, the 616 one isnt much of a slouch either... Pr1983 03:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC) :::HA! Agreed! --M1shawhan 17:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC) :In Astonishing X-Men his armoured form protects him from falling through the atmosphere of the Breakworld, which seemed to be similar to that of Earth's, whether or not this is equal to a nuclear detonation or not, I'm not sure. --Lwmorton1234 04:39, January 25, 2010 (UTC) ::Given earth people can breathe the breakworld's atmosphere, we should be able to establish bounds on air density, from that a terminal velocity, and given a mass estimate for Colossus in his metal form, estimate the force of impact. It might compare to a small nuclear explosion... How dense is Osmium anyway? --Squirrelloid 00:39, June 18, 2010 (UTC) :I did just this, skipping over the more complicated math, and ignoring most of the common sense that prevented me from making an estimation. :If Colossus weighs 228 kg armored, I estimated his weight while phased to be about 20% of that, at about 46 kg, since he was still falling. Then the estimation of heights. Kitty and Piotr left the ship at what looked like high altitude skydiving height, about 15000 feet. Their first impact was the top of a sky-scraper, and not a tall one, estimated at about 1200 feet. Then the second impact was about a third of the way to the surface (given the drawn angle) at about 800 feet. The final impact was at ground. :Using an online calculator and these estimates, I was able to find that the first average impact force was about 18,643,83 N. The second impact, (now at full mass), was about 17,875,200 N, and the final impact was about 5,448,360 N. :I couldn't find the estimated force of any nuclear weapon to compare this to, sadly... anyone wanna take it from here? :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 06:14, June 18, 2010 (UTC) ::I must say... I have seem some very comic book nerdly discussions, but this one has achieved a new level of awesome. You are so totally the man for calculating all this out! ::Artful Dodger 12:52, June 18, 2010 (UTC) ::The Davy Crockett is the smallest nuclear device that I know of and supposedly the low end on that would yield energy of about 42,000,000,000 J. Hope that helps, I'm not entirely sure how to convert it so you could have a valid comparison in this situation. CaptainGetts 14:48, June 18, 2010 (UTC) :I love this kind of discussion, and as a Physicist, I should be able to better answer the question than I am, but alas, my physics classes were much too long ago. :Newtons are the unit for force, and Joules are the unit for force done over an area so: :1 Newton = 1 Joule/m :To be able to scale the 42 billion Joules into newtons, we'd need to know the effective area the force was felt over. :I could add the Joules I calculated for, but they're at home. We'll have to wait until tonight. I seem to remember it was much less energy than 42 billion though... :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 16:48, June 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Not to nitpick (ok, to nitpick), your mass estimate for Colossus in his armored form seems low. That's what, ~500lbs? He's got to mass at least half that unarmored, and I refuse to believe his armored form *merely* doubles his mass. If we assume Osmium has the same density as Iron (probably an underestimate), and he weighs 100kg unarmored, he should weigh 787kg when armored. ::Also, height fallen is irrelevant, at least for the first part. He's going to reach terminal velocity. I'm not sure how phasing interacts with terminal velocity, but we could assume that since Kitty can walk on air, she can at *least* exert enough force to counter gravity for herself + a little extra (she can move upwards). ::To calculate past the first impact we'd need to know how much energy is absorbed by the building. We can probably actually calculate this, given we can assume something about the stress absorbtion capacity of the breakworld metal from its ability to plow straight through a mega-sentinel without buckling as a bullet. ::Come on guys, lets be a little rigorous here! ::--Squirrelloid 17:34, June 18, 2010 (UTC) (who will totally start doing some of the math himself at some point). :::Useful data: :::*Osmium is a real metal with density 22.61 g/cm^3 :::*A human weighing 114kg (ie, Piotr) has a volume of approximately 114L (a person's density is near 1.0 g/cm^3 = 1 kg/L) :::*228kg of Osmium has a volume of ~10L (10.084), or about .01 m^3 :::*A person has around 2m^2 outer surface area. That .01m^3 of Os would therefore provide a depth of .01m^3/2m^2 = .005m, or .5cm, over the entire body. And we haven't even coated his lungs yet, which have vastly more surface area than the skin. (And we know they must be coated, since he can speak in armored form!) :::*Of course, we know Colossus isn't just an Osmium shell, he's solid Osmium (see UXM 178-179, 210-213), so we can clearly reject the mass given on the page (which is presumably Marvel's official weight - way to go Marvel, you failed math!). :::*At 114kg in human form, Colossus should weigh an astounding 2580kg when he transforms to Osmium. (2577.54kg, but we only have 3 significant digits). :::Now I'm torn, Marvel's weight is clearly wrong, but it is official... Should we change it to what it should be? :::--Squirrelloid 18:11, June 18, 2010 (UTC) :I think we should definitely add a note, since Marvel's numbers are way off, but we should probably leave the 'official' weight up there until it's changed in a handbook. We've given newer users a lot of crap for changing these numbers without an official Marvel publication citation, so to change them ourselves (regardless of the better estimates), would be pretty two-faced. :I agree, their estimate is extremely low, considering the density of the material he transforms into. I was only using what was on the page. :I would think that phasing negates mass to a certain extent, so that at some point, she would weigh just enough to ride air currents. I've never seen talk about if it's her mass, density, or some other odd factor that is affected by her powers, but it's likely either her density that changes or her mass, so we can account for that by percentage for a decent estimate of the weight falling. In this case, they do still fall towards the planet, so they have to be exhibiting some weight, even if it's only a very small amount. :It's my understanding that terminal velocity only affects the maximum speed at which an object can fall. It's also affected by air density, which is dependent on air pressure and temperature, as well as the gas mixture. All of these factors would be difficult to guesstimate, given that Breakworld is in a completely different solar system. It's altogether possible they have elements we haven't discovered yet at decent abundance levels in the atmosphere. Just because the atmosphere is breathable doesn't make it all that similar to our own. :When it comes to volume, you have to take in the 'superhero physique' which is much different than even the most extreme body builders in our reality. Unless, of course, you discount how a character is generally drawn as what they actually look like. :A lot of the guesstimation points I skipped over, just because at some point you lose any sense of reality in the calculations. I did include how much energy is absorbed by the building by estimating the 'bounce' of the falling objects, (approximately a meter for the first fall, nothing for the second, and possibly a negative tenth of a meter for the last, considering they were impacted into the ground). Again, a gross estimate based on our own atmosphere and relative gravity. :Breakworld's gravity comes into play as well. Since the core of their planet was significantly different materials than our own, the gravity felt by falling objects could be significantly different as well. Not to mention the actual size or mass of the planet, which could conceivably be many times larger or smaller than Earth. :However, even without all these fact points, and treating their atmosphere and gravity similar to that of Earth, our previously calculated impact forces were nowhere near what would be felt by a nuclear weapon. It would be difficult to make up the difference of three or four orders of magnitude with relatively small differences in mass, gravity, and atmospheric conditions. There would probably have to be substantial differences between Earth and Breakworld to even come close to comparing the impacts to an atomic weapon. :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 17:07, June 22, 2010 (UTC) ::So here's some force calculators that will help us narrow it all down. These of course, assume Earth constants. ::* Terminal Velocity: Using :::2580 kg as his mass (which probably isn't true since he was phased) :::0.5 m^2 as his affected surface area :::1.0 as the drag coefficient (same as a skier in Earth atmosphere) :::22.61 g/cm^3 as his density :::and 1 g as the gravity coefficient, (probably different on Breakworld) :::we get 2.12 m/s as the terminal velocity. ::* Acceleration: Using :::2.12 m/s as the final velocity (from terminal) :::0 m/s as the initial velocity (which really isn't true, since they started their decent in a spacecraft which was already falling) :::5 s as the time it took to reach terminal velocity (since time is relative when reading comics, any guess here is probably accurate) :::we get 0.423 meter/second^2 as the acceleration. ::* Force: Using :::2580 kg as mass (still likely to be untrue) :::0.423 m/s^2 as acceleration :::we get 1090 Newtons of force ::From these basic equations, we're nowhere near the ballpark of an atomic weapon. ::— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 19:08, June 22, 2010 (UTC) Good deal. Thanks for that. I will note the 'earth-like gravity' and 'earth-like atmosphere' are defensible because earth characters don't comment on it. Even small changes in gravity are extremely noticeable (say, on the order of a 10% change would be noticed). I mean, you'll remember there was even concern that the Colorado baseball team's stadium was high enough that there'd be a change in homerun frequency because of the absolutely tiny gravity difference (which admittedly is so small humans don't normally notice the gravity difference, but they do notice the consequent air pressure difference. And we're talking a very very small change in local gravity). And tht the atmosphere is breathable means its Oxygen based, so it can't have a lot of methane or ammonia in it (reacts with oxygen readily), nor can it have too much CO2 or people would suffocate. As far as unknown elements - any elements unknown to us are going to be radioactive, and *not* gases. They're also going to be so rare as to be virtually impossible to find in nature, because we're already creating stuff well past what we can observe in star spectra. (And their likely half-lives are so short as to be unlikely to persist for very long.) This virtually requires the breakworld mystery metal to be an unknown alloy, not a new element. And certainly there's nothing too weird floating around in their atmosphere. --Squirrelloid 20:06, June 22, 2010 (UTC) :Makes sense. This was fun, we need to do things like this more often around here! :) :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 20:09, June 23, 2010 (UTC) Stamina About this line: Superhuman Stamina: While in his armored form, Colossus is granted great immunity to the fatigue toxins generated by his muscles during physical activity. He can exert himself at peak capacity for several days. I'd always been under the impression that they'd never shown a limit to his stamina while in armoured form... Pr1983 23:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC) Gamma-fide piotr what if piotr got gamma-fied/ how would he look? would he try to kill the x-men?Redskaar 21:17, August 7, 2010 (UTC)Redskaar :Is he mad at the X-Men for some reason? Last I heard, they were on good terms... :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 04:50, August 10, 2010 (UTC) ::He simply "doesn't care" except for Illyana and Shadowcat. ;) --Johnnybravo44 (talk) 03:20, August 12, 2010 (UTC) Death Having a death appearance in there doesn't mean the character's dead. It just means that's the last comic they died in. — Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 23:07, December 1, 2010 (UTC) :So, does that meant that we are or are not leaving the appearance of death? ::--Wazzirving 21:16, February 17, 2011 (UTC)wazzirving ::If you list when he died, you should put a "Return/Reborn/whatsoever" issue, because doing that the character has automatically the "Deceased Characters" category. A "Death" issue should only work if the character is still dead, so you should put many Deaceased Characters categories in many characters like Captain America, Bucky, Thor, Spider-Man, Green Goblin, Human Torch, Annihilus an all the many Marvel characters who died (but returned). It's incorrect because we give the person who reads this the impression that the character is still dead. If you want to mark if he died, you should also mark if he returned. It makes really no-sense to do that. ::ADour, the ADour-tacular ADour 19:35, March 14, 2012 (UTC) :ok, the categories do seem to be a problem. if the deceased category cannot be manually removed, it's very misleading to have his death listed. Strangely enough, even removing the appearance of his death doesn't remove the category for the moment. ideas?-edkaufman (talk) 11:10, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :: Apparently "Place of Death" should also be removed. --Harasar 12:59, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :::good stuff, it's settled then!-edkaufman (talk) 10:39, March 19, 2012 (UTC) STRENGTH AS JUGGERNAUT Colossus as Juggernaut. Thor fanboys want to exalt and overstate his strength. Juggernaut has been visibly shown on numerous occasions to be as strong as and or stronger than Thor. However in Thor vol 1 issues 411, 412, 429 among other we see the conflicts between the two and it is shown that in the first two issues Thor needed help to stop Juggernaut and in the 3rd, he nullified Juggernaut's field through magic and although was a better fighter, he was not physically stronger. : dear Briancolding, it's not a question of fanboys, it was a question of proper referencing. In none of these issues is it shown to a degree of certainty. They clobber some, some punches are thrown, those are the facts. The first two issues you give feature a weakened Thor, so they cannot be taken at face value anyway. The third one leaves much open for interpretation. It's just a very different statement to say "Juggernaut says he's as strong as Thor" (easily verifiable: Has he or hasn't he said it?) than to claim that he is as strong. What are the criteria? In general, when you make a statement like that, you give an issue reference. This goes double when you change numbers, like the amount of weight a character can lift.--edkaufman (talk) 18:12, January 3, 2012 (UTC) THOR WAS NOT weakened. He was not expecting Juggernaut to be unfazed by mjolnir and got caught off guard in 411 and took a beating, resulting in being weaker in 412-but that is what happens in a fight. The next fight, Thor was ready for Juggernaut and despite beating Juggernaut repeatedly, they were to even in strength and endurance for Thor to knock him out. You should re-read those issues. Juggernaut always claimed to be STRONGER than people but he was SHOWN to be Thor's equal in strength. Not to mention, if we do NOT use the material provided by MARVEL as source material then who is to decide what is right and wrong? You because you feel like it? No. I referenced the issues and proved a point. If you do not like what was written, become an editor/writer for Marvel and retcon the significance of these issues into insignificance. You, Ed Kaufman, do NOT supersede Marvel published issues as an authority. They published it. People read it. I am done here. Briancolding 18:29, January 3, 2012 (UTC)briancoldingBriancolding 18:29, January 3, 2012 (UTC) :::I just have reread the issues, and I still don't agree. I'm trying to teach you the ropes of this site. Provide proper reference. If you're going to go back to Vidar's page, you'll see how it is done. And on that one you were right - you have proper reference. Here, you don't. That's your subjective interpretation of the events in those issues. If you're not going to accept that, I'll lock down the page.--edkaufman (talk) 18:33, January 3, 2012 (UTC) Teaching? You pompous, self absorbed narcissistic. You are only showing me that like with MOST comic book based sites it is over run by fanboys who can not get past the fact that they have been PROVEN wrong. You did NOT read the books, you obviously did NOT read the issues of Thor vol 2 where they fought, etc. You decided to try to bluff me with a blatant lie. :Just to give an outside perspective, b/c I see this is getting emotional, you guys are arguing a moot point. The "fact" always remains that Marvel is a "any given Sunday" type of comic, when it comes to fighters and their abilities against each other. We see Juggernaut easily beat Thor in one issue, but learn later that Thor can lift something Juggernaut never could, or that Thor always holds back with mortals. Those were examples that I pulled out of the air, but the point remains that, when a new writer wants something to be fact, we have to rewrite the history books. I say that to say, we, as fans, can only use the actual written/read facts stated from CREDIBLE sources. If Juggernaut SAYS that he's stronger than the Asgardians, that may not be credible, but if he states that, after beating an army of them, I would say he was stating fact. If the narrator states it, that's credible (to me). If a genius states it, that is credible (to me). I'm not taking sides, but the real argument is what is or isn't a credible source. Just because Juggernaut easily beat Thor, doesn't qualify, because, as a Thor fanboy, I know that he shows and says that he has been holding back for years. The guy always gets beat in one issue, just to come back, THE VERY NEXT ISSUE, and beat the assailant, WITH THE EXACT SAME MOVES. I can credit enough of those issues, but let's just agree that he (Juggernaut) easily beat him (Thor), and leave it to Marvel to tell us what the factors in the fight were. ::my two cents--Wazzirving 22:57, January 4, 2012 (UTC)wazzirving :::completely agree with you. I actually found the last version briancolding added to be okay, though. that they matched strength seems to give enough leeway for everything we've seen happening in the comics.--edkaufman (talk) 00:23, January 10, 2012 (UTC) I believe that his baseline strength as Colossus is being underestimated. The citation given for the 70 ton upper limit was sourced from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, Vol. 2, which was first released in 1986, and not appreciably edited since then from what I can tell. The Colossus depicted was at best 19 to 21 years of age, and had not yet had his cells realigned by Magneto, at which point he was said to have grown appreciably stronger. Therefore the baseline measurement of 70 tons seems low, as he was not only still getting stronger with age, but the Magneto realignment is not being taken into consideraton. In fact, if this wiki is to be believe, a non-Juggernaut powered Colossus is not as strong as Warpath, who is credited to being able to lift 75 tons, and that just doesn't track. Although he was beaten by World War Hulk, so was the Thing. I would place Colossus at least on par or stronger than the Thing, who this wiki give a Class 100 rating. If I remember right, the Thing in that same Handbook of the Marvel Universe was said to be able to lift 85 tons. If Ben Grimm's strength can be adjusted up, I see no reason not to do the same with Piotr's. Just my opinion, but I believe too much weight is being given to an encyclopedia entry from 26 years ago. (Corvus Corvidae 00:34, March 29, 2012 (UTC)CorvusCorvidae) Cytorrak physical manifestation I suspect the reason why Piotr Rasputin had the danger of manifesting additional physical characteristics of Cytorrak (something that never happened to Cain Marko) is that he's using the power of the Juggernaut to it's fullest, which requires the avatar to use their power for their own personal desires and Piotr wasn't exactly a greedy power hungry sociopath to begin with, his personal desires are different to that of Cain Marko's. --Vae Infectus (talk) 16:09, June 30, 2012 (UTC) Red Room? Do we have any information on weather piotr was ever taken into the red room? I am looking over a few issues and i am not finding anything. I am going by dialogue in X-Men: Deadly Genesis Vol 1 3.--FossilLord 17:40, May 19, 2014 (UTC) Marital Status If his marital status in single in the template, why and how can it say married in the categories? And since he's not married, can we fix this? Uncanny X-Factor (talk) 23:55, June 4, 2014 (UTC)Uncanny X-Factor Some updates 1.) Should add 'formerly' to his being a host of the Phoenix Force. That ended some time ago now and he's not being featured in any publications where it's still a thing. 2.) Similarly, his tattoo of 'Katya' with a heart has not been shown to be on his chest in some time (in Cable and X-force, he lacked it the entire run, and I believe that's the most recent time he's been shown shirtless repeatedly). It should be removed as a notable feature. I'll make these changes in a few days if no one raises any objections to them. Anchorsify (talk) 06:50, December 14, 2015 (UTC)